TOPIC: '67 80 hp died again "Update"

I do believe those wires unscrew from the cap.

Bob, the wires unscrew - counter clockwise. Sorry the motor is being such a PITA. Funny - I've never taken one of the old V4 pumps apart. Either I've been extremely lucky that they continue to work, or even luckier that I didn't install Chinese parts into the pump.

I use Pertronix 3 Ohm Flame Thrower epoxy coils on these. The original coil was 1.5 Ohms primary with a 1.5 Ohms resistance wire. I remove the old resistance wire and replace it with a regular piece if 16ga wire. The coil is designed to run without an external resistor, and the epoxy body is supposed to be water proof and shock resistant.

BUT - because the spark is high tension - it will rocket through the p;lug wires just fine, even if they read different resistances. the concern is insulation break-down. the spark can ground out through the old wires if they are cracked. I'd be surprised it the wires are the problem.

Thanks Cal, Ed and Bruce. I do know I have at least one bad wire because I would only get a readying if I bent it a certain way so I may as well replace them all since they are original. I called Napa and they said they could get me that Sierra set but it had to come from Indiana and would be $65! I can find them all over the net for $37 including Amazon so I may go that route. I'm going to stop by on the way home and see if they stock the distributor ends, if so I may just build a set then.

Two other things still going on.
1)Noticed the flywheel was VERY hot after the run when it quit. Don't remember my fat Fifty ever getting that hot but it may have. Is that normal?

2)After it's been sitting a long time it still won't start without a little gas done the carb. One it starts it restart, well use to, all day long. What did I miss?

Bob

Bob,

You will probably save time and headaches if you just order a factory made set. The ends are crimped onto the wire with a special tool that is in the shape of a star - it really grips the wire so it stays put. I've never been able to get a good crimp on one by hand, so I have concluded that for the hassle and price, it isn't worth trying to save a buck. Buy the set online.

If your engine is really a 67, it should have the flat aluminum flywheel that incorporates a magnet array for the alternator. Is this the one it has? If so, I don't recall the flywheel ever getting that hot. The old steel ones that were painted white can get hot as hell. They were used on the earlier high current alternator. Your '67 should be made of aluminum and have a steel ring gear if it is the alternator model. It could have shorted diodes in the rectifier - so try disconnecting the rectifier and see if there is a short in there.

If your 67 has a magneto - it may have a flywheel like the older motors like the Fat 50. If so, it shouldn't get hot either.

When I say hot, I mean hot enough to burn your skin - that shouldn't happen

Bruce,
Thanks I went ahead and pulled the trigger, pre-assembled wires should be here Friday, I hope. As for the flywheel, yes it's the aluminum one with the steel starter ring. When I say hot, it's very hot to the touch, don't know if it would quite fry an egg. lol I'll double check the rectifiers, but the ammeter did show it was charging while it was running.

Bob

I'm dealing with similar issue now. The connectors are threaded on the ends that go into the distributor cap. Un-thread them counter clockwise.

They're threaded. Unscrew them.

Change one wire at a time then there will be no firing order mistakes.

The wires came in yesterday but I had to stain the deck today so I should be able to put them on tomorrow. Don't have to worry about the wires since the cap has the numbers on it as well as the cylinder covers.

Bob

Change the woes on at a time then there are no mistake s.

Well the wires came in Friday and I got them on today but they sent 5 spark plug wires vie 4 plug wires and a coil wire, DOH! So I have to hit NAPA tomorrow and get a cup and end for the coil side, as well as a new solenoid because apparently it decided to die also! I can't win with this thing!

Quick dumb question: shouldn't the rotor be pointing to the number 1 post in the cap when cylinder #1 is at top dead center? The reason I ask is because #1 is at top dead center, flywheel marks lines up where it should and the distributor pulley lines up with the mark on the block but the rotor actually points to the wire outside the cap, which is offset from the electrode. I know that position changes with throttle position but when it's in the start position it's not at the electrode is this correct?

Bob

Bob - as you state the timing position of the engine does change with throttle position. It actually changes a lot from fully retarded - (idle) - to full advance - (2/3 to full throttle) If the engine was a typical old school car engine, the distributor body would be locked in place on the engine. All of the timing / spark advance would be the result of internal mechanisms (centrifugal and or vacuum) that changed the timing of when the points opened and closed. when the engine was at rest - the rotor would return to the static (initial) setting for that engine. Also, as you probably know, 4 cycle engines utilize very little timing changes during their normal course of operation. The old 2 cycled depended on wide swings of ignition timing to regulate engine speed. This is because the carburetor is never fully closed on an old 2 cycle design. The throttle plates are designed to always pass an ample supply of fuel and and air to lubricate and cool the engine at lower speeds. Because of this, the only way to get the engine speed down to an idle is by retarding the timing a LOT.

As opposed to a car distributor, the internal mechanism on your outboard (the shaft, breaker cam, and rotor, never change their relationship to the crankshaft. All of the movement is on the outside body and cap of the distributor. So when set to idle, the rotor tip is going to be well past the point of the spark towers on the cap. At full throttle, the rotor tip will be well before the spark towers. This is why the rotor to number 1 spark tower is "off" in it's relation to TDC of the crankpin.

Excellent thanks. Still won't start though. Got the end to make the new coil wire and it cam in smashed so NAPA had to order yet another one! I asked them to make sure they didn't smash this one.

Put a new solenoid in since I thought it died, well it didn't. Turn the key now an nothing happens. Ignition light comes on but nothing else happens, dead. Checked fuses in the fuse block I put in and all good. Starter will turn if I use jumper cables from the battery to the starter itself. Mosquitoes were so bad I had to bail out until tomorrow. Darn rain came earlier today and made it very humid by the time I got home.

I was able to do a quick meter check on the ignition switch and it seems to be working correctly but I'll have to double check again tomorrow. I need to check and make sure I'm getting voltage down to the solenoid.

Bob

DEET - 100% I have a shallow pond behind my house, mosquitoes breed like rats there.


Bob, looking over my old greasy schematics of the '67 100hp there is a 20 amp fuse coming off the stator assembly. Should be right on the motor, not in any fuse box. Might check that.
Make sure the new solenoid is wired correct, White wire from ign switch going to small terminal closest to the bat wire, other white wire goes to the safety switch which just grounds everything out. Is that safety switch open? If closed you won't start. As a side, just kidding here. Is it in neutral??

Cal, thanks, yeah forgot to bath in it! lol

Yes it's in neutral (checked it twice just to make sure), I didn't do a meter check on the safety switch, will tomorrow. I looked at the wiring diagram I have and it shows an inline fuse only don't recall seeing one. I did make sure they're was one in the fuse block I wired in. Something else I'll have to check tomorrow.

Bob

Well after putting on new wires and a new solenoid, no joy. So I checked the safety switch, seemed intermittent so I changed it with the one from the '62 75hp parts motor. Still no joy, so I check the solenoid and now voltage across the control contacts even after changing the switch. Check to see if I can even get it to click, no joy, bad brand new solenoid, so I have to see if NAPA will take it back even after I had to saw off the mounting bracket at their suggestion. Wouldn't fit the mounting holes if I didn't use the old mounting ring. It was the Ford solenoid but bad. So rechecked the old solenoid, it's actually still good! One of the weeks I guess.

Changed it back and Woo Hoo it turns over but still won't start. Hmmm no spark, check and re-gap the points, check the condenser, was running out of ideas. Took another look at the cap and here's what I found.



So what the heck is wrong this picture!!!! Well the ole' 75hp came in handy AGAIN! I took the cap off that one and switched the wires over, well 4 of them anyway. When I went to pull the boot back on the coil wire, it came out of the thread in end!!!!! So of course trying to re-use the old one was fruitless, so I have to get a new one from NAPA when I take the solenoid back! Sheesh what a pain in the a$$!

So hopefully once I get that and install the coil wire again she should fire right up. I know what your thinking, can't you just use the old coil wire, nope it came apart when I removed it from the cap! Like I said, hell of a week!

Bob

Bob,

After all that screwing around, you will find your rotor is shorted to ground thru the plastic. Spark is coming into the cap & directly to the distributor shaft.

Take the coil wire out of the cap, hold it near ground & watch the spark jump.

Jim

I should mention that the brush that's missing was laying on top of the rotor! Nice hugh!??!!?

So I checked marineengine for a price on a new cap, figured it wouldn't be cheap, $235!!!!! Youch, but the interesting thing is the parts diagram does show just the brush and spring being available. Since that's all that's wrong with the original one I may just go that route since the electrodes all look great.

So has anyone ever replaced the brush and spring on their cap? Do you just pull the spring out or twist it out? Any special tricks I should know before I attempt it?

Bob

Waterwings wrote:

So has anyone ever replaced the brush and spring on their cap? Do you just pull the spring out or twist it out? Any special tricks I should know before I attempt it? Bob

Just give that spring a clockwise twist while you're pulling, and it should come right out. Twist the new one in the same way.

Here's a brand new brush/spring assy on eBay for less than $15:



Cheers.......ed

Bob,

A new cap is not needed unless the existing one is cracked, or the towers eroded severely.

As JIM suggested, check the rotor to see if the bakelite had carbonized in the center where it plugs onto the distributor shaft. This can be tested with an Ohmmeter set on the Megohm setting. There should be absolutely no resistance reading from the brass portion to anywhere inside the socket that fits over the distributor shaft. Eve if there is no resistance reading, the rotor could have internal leakage that can't be seen or measured.

You have confirmed voltage at the coil primary - correct? Also - check the coil windings primary and secondary - new coils can fail.

Ed, thanks, I've got one on order along with a new cap end for the coil wire that came off on disassembly! lol

Bruce, yep tested the coil it's fine. It was actually the rotor brush from the cap fell off and sitting on the rotor!

Bob

Bob,

You still haven't said if you have checked the rotor for short to ground.

Think about the system a minute. The center contact in the cap is spring loaded to a stationary rotor contact. Because that rotor contact is laying tight against the plastic body, they fail. TRUST ME!

Like I said prior, simply remove the coil wire from the cap and crank the motor. See if spark jumps from the coil wire to ground. The rest is easy.

Jim

Jim,
Sorry I ordered the new brush for the rotor cap and a couple of new ends for the coil wire that pulled out. I got the new ends in yesterday and tried crimping one on at work but we crimped it too much so I have to re-do it Thursday as I'm taking the day off tomorrow. the other cap is on and just waiting. I didn't get a chance to try the spark to ground from the coil or ohm out the cap. hope to do that with some time tomorrow. Unfortunately honey-dos got in the way again and I had to paint the wrought iron railing around the deck, yeah!

I'll post with an update soon, thanks for the help and checking back. more to follow.

Bob

Quick update, tested the rotor and it' not shorted. Should have the new end on the coil wire tomorrow and I'll try and fire her up. pretty sure the spark problem was the broken rotor brush in the cap. We'll know tomorrow.

Bob

Well it's been one of those weeks again! As stated earlier I tested the rotor to ground, no reading. Got the coil wire end for the distributor cap on at work and installed. Turned her over and again nothing. Pulled number one plug, had the Admiral turn it over and no spark, damn! Tried to unscrew the coil wire form the cap and of course the new end came off!!!! Of course I don't have any more, I just used the two new ones I got! So now it's back to on-line and pay $8+ shipping for a $1.39 part. Needless to say I will be buying several!

Anyway I did have the Admiral turn it over while I held the stripped end from the coil and wala big blue spark! So sanity check me here please, only thing between the wire and the plugs is the rotor brush in the cap, the rotor and the plug wires.

Checked every wire, all good; checked the brush to cap socket for wire, good; checked the rotor to ground and distributor shaft, opened not grounded. What the hell am I missing? All the spark plugs bad, don't think that's possible. New rotor is $70 from my usual source Marine Engine.

Thoughts????

Bob

Bob, I have several of the brass screw ends, used but clean. If you have a way to install them they are yours. You'll have to spread the crimps a little but they should work. Free baby. PM me if you want them I can slip them in an envelope tomorrow morning.
Cal

Cal,
Thanks, I tried to message but it doesn't seem to work. The only thing that seems to work was the E-mail so I tried that. Let me know if you get it. I tried re-using a couple of my old ones but when I tried to flatten out the crimp a little they broke but my crimps looked different than yours so I'll give it a shot.

Now if I could just figure out why the spark isn't getting to the plugs.

Bob

It worked. Got all the info, will be in the mail tomorrow am.
Just for info. On the '67 Johnson the original plug wires were Prestolite 108717. The new one obtained from my the local dealer Just say 7mm copper conductor cable. They sold by the foot so I bought about 6 ft and made my own using the old ends but new plug ends. When attaching the new wire to the old ends I stripped about 1/8" of insulation off the wire before shoving it into the tip to make sure it would make good contact with the brass.

Excellent thank you sir! At this point I don't know what to think, the rotor must be shorting some how in a way I can't see. I ohmed it out and there's no resistance reading but I don't know what the heck else it can be.

Bob

Bob,

Trust me it will look OK but the spark jumps thru the plastic. Maybe cracked, maybe carbon tracking, I don't know but I've been there.

Try starting it after dark with the cover off sometimes you can see the spark jump.

Well I guess I take a look at the 75hp rotor and see what it looks like and give it a try, at least to see if it will start. If it does then I definitely get a new rotor.

Bob

Well I was able to cobble the coil end back together until Cal's ends come in, thanks again Cal. Used the other rotor from the 75hp parts motor and wala it started!!!!!!! Well I really had to mess with the throttle setting but it started eventually.

Sorry for being bullheaded, couldn't come to grips that it was that rotor since it checked good, thanks Jim and Bruce!!!

However, it still does not sound like it's firing on all four. It's popping and missing somewhat. It could be the old gas I suppose but it almost seems like it's off on timing a tooth. Problem is, it lines up right where it should for the timing. I suppose I could pull the flywheel and see if it sheered again, but if it did it wouldn't line up correctly and it does. I guess I'll have to mess with it tomorrow.

Oh yeah, I blew the 20amp fuse somehow also!?

I was at an APBA vintage outboard class race all day. What a blast!!!! I'll post pics in the main forum.

Bob

Bob,

The old Evinrude certified technician still knows his stuff. Learned some on the job & some working on my old "Fossil Drive"

Sounds like a good day all around. Glad you finally got a heartbeat.
Was at the Door County Maritime Museum Classic and wood boat show, (WI) the last two days, met some old friends. PS...Got a plaque (solid brass) best fiberglass classic for my Lone Star.

way to go cal, frog

Jim thanks again!!!

Cal, congrats! Told you you'd get a trophy if they were giving any.

Bob

AAAGGGGHHHHHHHH! Well I reset all the throttle cables and carb settings to what they should be, made sure all the timing is right and put a new 20amp fuse in. She fired right up and I adjusted the low speed idle until I can get her back in the water.

Well just to make sure all was ok, I put her in forward and died right there and blew the 20amp fuse. Checked switch wiring from switch to plug and no problems there, switch checks out also. Readjusted the sliding lock out for the transmission switches, wouldn't go into forward smoothly, now ok. Put a new fuse in and fired right up, put her in reverse, no problem, back into neutral, no problem, back into forward died and blew the fuse again only took 3 seconds this time instead of right away. I had also checked the wiring to the transmission in the motor. Undid the blade connectors one at a time and check to see if it was shorted to ground. Nope good to go there. Checked both coils to ground and both read straight to ground with no actual resistance reading.

Shouldn't the coils at least read some resistance or am I now brain dead? I feel like it anyway. Of course both read the same and it does go into reverse ok. What's the basic principle for these coils. They're just electromagnetic coils to pull the clutch into and out of gear correct?

Bob

Yup, one side of each coil is grounded and you should get some resistance, not a short, to ground. Try measuring the resistance on your lowest scale (Rx1 if you've got it).

Since the reverse coil isn't blowing the fuse when you shift to reverse, the resistance of the reverse coil would be the correct value.

One other thing you could do, if you have a battery charger with an ammeter, is connect the charger to the reverse coil to see what amps it pulls, then try doing the same thing to the forward coil. Be ready to secure the charger if the fwd coil is faulty/shorted and causes a short-circuit.

That fuse is blowing for a reason, and either the fwd coil has a problem, or there's an issue with the shift cable or interconnecting wiring in the gearcase.

G'luck.......ed

Thanks Ed, yep after a little googling, since I don't have a manual, it appears it should read anywhere from 4.5 to 6.5 ohms. One is reading 7.5 the other is reading 00.0!

Now here's the problem. The '67 80hp wiring diagram I have says the Blue wire is forward and green is reverse, but the online Boatinfo manual says that Green is forward and blue is reverse. I'm assuming the wiring diagram I have for the 80hp is wrong. Would that be a good assumption?

If that is a good assumption then the forward coil is definitely shorted for some reason. What I can't figure out is why all of a sudden it decides to short out. It was fine when I took it out last time. That's also when she completely died, but I'm attributing that to the bad rotor brush in the cap. The fuse did not blow when she quit. That happened while doing all the troubleshooting. Do these just go bad for no reason?

Bob