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TOPIC: New To Glassics

Re:New To Glassics 4 years 9 months ago #77741

  • 4stroke
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I seem to recall the bendix problem on one of mine, after it's stuck will it release when you turn the flywheel a little by hand? I think mine was hanging up because compression still had a little pressure on the bendix. After it started up it kicked out like it should. As far as the coil getting hot, it will if it's not running and the points are closed.

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Dick Johnson

1989 16ft Sylvan

'57 Evinrude 18 (finally found a decent one)
'58 Johnson 5.5
'72 Johnson 6.0
'61 Homelite
'64 Johnson 18
'65 Homelite 55
'66 Homelite 55
'68 Bearcat 55 (3)
'70 Bearcat 55 (2)
'71 Bearcat 85 (Sold)

Re:New To Glassics 4 years 9 months ago #77760

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Thanks, 4stroke. I solved the problem with the hot coil. Since I'm not using the traditional coil with the resistance wire, The orange wire is eliminated. So, I had to do some creative wiring and the motor turns great. I took the starter off and the bendix snaps back like it should. So I shimmed it out with a washer and will check it out tomorrow. If it still binds, I'll elongate the upper hole in the mount and see if that relieves the pressure on the flywheel. I ordered a primer bulb that should be here on thurs. Pouring gas down the venturi doesn't seem to work.

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Re:New To Glassics 4 years 9 months ago #77780

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I'm assuming you've now went with a coil with an internal resistor?
You say you have eliminated the orange wire, is this the wire from terminal strip to the coil? Eliminated completely or replaced with a regular non resistor wire?

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Dick Johnson

1989 16ft Sylvan

'57 Evinrude 18 (finally found a decent one)
'58 Johnson 5.5
'72 Johnson 6.0
'61 Homelite
'64 Johnson 18
'65 Homelite 55
'66 Homelite 55
'68 Bearcat 55 (3)
'70 Bearcat 55 (2)
'71 Bearcat 85 (Sold)

Re:New To Glassics 4 years 8 months ago #77801

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Before coils had internal resistors, they had external resistors. Before they had external resistors, they had a resistor wire. The wire was very specific as to the ohms it was designed for. However, it did not produce a very hot spark which made starting the motor difficult. The coil I got completely eliminates having to use a wire. I still have the old coil. Keep in mind, I'll have to do some creative wiring to accommodate the oil pressure and temperature cutoff switch.
The problem I'm have now is gas. These type of mechanical fuel pumps lay sideways which makes the fuel hard to draw unless the pump is primed. I bought one real cheap off e-bay and will be here Thursday. I tried to pour gas down the venturi, but, nothing. It won't fire yet. When the primer bulb gets here, I'll really get into this.

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Re:New To Glassics 4 years 8 months ago #77812

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Like Dr. Frankenstein said, "She's alive, ALIVE"! The problem was the distributor was not grounded. When she started, it ran for about a minute 'till the gas I poured in it was used up. I'll make a video of this soon and post it.
And oh yea, big thanks to Billr for the parts he had that helped with this project.

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Re:New To Glassics 4 years 8 months ago #77858

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CraigLam wrote:

Before coils had internal resistors, they had external resistors. Before they had external resistors, they had a resistor wire. The wire was very specific as to the ohms it was designed for. However, it did not produce a very hot spark which made starting the motor difficult.


Glad to hear it's running. Yes point type engines are more difficult to start using only the resistor circuit. It's designed to give you less volts (about 9V) to the coil as a straight 12V to the coil all the time burns points, drastically reducing point life. This is why you have a secondary start circuit which is incorporated in all Homelite/Bearcat engines and all other ballast resistor or resistor wire point type ignitions. This system bypasses the resistor and provides 12V to the coil during cranking producing a "hotter" spark. Once the engine is running the starter is off, it then switches back to the primary circuit which is through the ballast or resistor wire and back to the 9V circuit. I don't see how you can use the secondary start circuit with an internal resistor coil, seems to me it defeats the whole secondary starting circuit? How would the coil get the 12v boost during starting?

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Dick Johnson

1989 16ft Sylvan

'57 Evinrude 18 (finally found a decent one)
'58 Johnson 5.5
'72 Johnson 6.0
'61 Homelite
'64 Johnson 18
'65 Homelite 55
'66 Homelite 55
'68 Bearcat 55 (3)
'70 Bearcat 55 (2)
'71 Bearcat 85 (Sold)

Re:New To Glassics 4 years 8 months ago #77876

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When I went to a new coil with an internal resistor, I eliminated the orange resistor wire.
I had to make some minor home repairs. I'm gonna make the video tomorrow.

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Re:New To Glassics 4 years 8 months ago #77893

Hello,
I have been reading this thread with interest as Craig has built up his Bearcat. I've never had my hands on one, but it looks like it would make an interesting project.
In the last couple of posts the subject of ballast resistors has been discussed. I've spent quite a bit of time with ballast resistor ignition and I see a lot of misinformation on what the resistor does in the system.
Four-stroke's question of having a ballast resistor in the coil defeating the bypass cold weather starting feature is valid and can be answered in two ways.
The first is that the ballast resistors primary function is not to aid in cold starting, but to furnish adequate spark at high engine RPM when coil saturation time is limited, and to prevent primary coil winding burnout at low RPM when saturation time becomes high. So, in theory you could have a coil with an internal ballast, but it would not be able to have a bypass circuit.
The second answer is that the only internal resistor ignition coils I have seen were used in English cars and they had three terminals. One for power in. One to the point set, and a third for the starter by bypass circuit.
I taught engine rebuilding for a larger corporation in the sixties when ballast resistor systems were the norm, and I finally had to write a paper for students so they were better able to understand the system. I have edited it somewhat over the years, so it is still current. It has a number of diagrams, etc. and it would difficult to post, but if you are interested in a copy I can send you the Word doc.
Good work on the engine Craig, and I hope to see it on the water soon.
Don

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Re:New To Glassics 4 years 8 months ago #78003

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Don,
What is the purpose of a starter bypass system and would you recommend using an internal resistor coil on a system designed for an external resistor if had only two terminals? In Craig's picture I can only see two terminals.


Attachments:

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Dick Johnson

1989 16ft Sylvan

'57 Evinrude 18 (finally found a decent one)
'58 Johnson 5.5
'72 Johnson 6.0
'61 Homelite
'64 Johnson 18
'65 Homelite 55
'66 Homelite 55
'68 Bearcat 55 (3)
'70 Bearcat 55 (2)
'71 Bearcat 85 (Sold)

Re:New To Glassics 4 years 8 months ago #78016

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Flying Fish, your knowledge of electrical systems is impressive. I've worked with coils with and without ballast resistors, but, not on the level you were on.
Anyway, I've taken a video of the motor with my video phone 'cause I have to reformat the disc on my camera and I'm not sure how. The motor also needs work. The carbs haven't been rebuilt yet, so, the the engine won't idle well. Remember, this engine sat for a very long time with it's previous owner. This engine has tremendous power. The torque when you gas it us unreal. This obviously wont happen when it's sitting on a boat and the steering mechanism is hooked up.
To tell you the truth, I wasn't sure anyone was reading my thread! What a pleasant surprise.

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Re:New To Glassics 4 years 8 months ago #78378

Dick - About your question first.
The purpose of a starter bypass system in a points ignition system is to bypass the ballast resistor during extremely cold weather starting. When cranking in warm weather a battery and starter in good condition will reduce the battery voltage to about 8-10 volts. This is enough to provide adequate voltage to the ignition coil primary circuit to start the engine. In extreme cold, the combination of thick oil, and reduced battery output can drop the battery voltage down to 5-6 volts during cranking. Having the ballast resistor in the primary circuit would reduce it even more and the coil would probably not produce enough voltage to get the engine started.
The important point though is that this is not the primary reason the ballast resistor is in the primary circuit. It is in there to allow higher primary voltage at high speed and to prevent primary circuit burn-out at low speed. The starter bypass is the least important reason a ballast resistor is used.
Dick, I have never personally seen an ignition coil with an internal resistor other than the ones used in English cars as I mentioned previously, and they did have three terminals so a bypass system could be used.
I have recently seen an ad for a coil that “does not require a ballast resistor”. It is a NAPA coil, part number IC14SB that is used in MANY four and six cylinder applications, mostly from the late fifties into the mid sixties. I don’t believe that this coil actually has a resistor internally, but has a primary circuit wire diameter and length that provides the higher resistance. Supposedly, its internal primary circuit resistance is 3.25 ohms. This is enough resistance to prevent primary circuit burn out at low RPM and still it allows enough voltage for adequate coil saturation at high RPM. You can’t use this coil on an eight cylinder at high RPM.
It doesn’t make any sense to have a coil with an internal resistor if the engine requires a bypass circuit. I am not aware of any way you can make a bypass circuit work without an extra terminal.
In the case of Craig’s Bearcat, I agree that if it is truly an internal resistor coil, or just has high internal resistance, it should not have any external resistor or resistance wire used, as the resistance is already in the system.
I question why the engine was designed with the bypass circuit in the first place. Both Scott Atwater and Mercury outboard distributor fired ignition systems use ballast resistors, but don’t have bypass circuits. They are never started in cold weather so they are not needed.

Craig,
Where did you get your coil? Do you have a part number or manufacturer name? Have you checked the ohms of the primary circuit? If it has an internal resistor, or has a high resistance winding it should have around 3 to 5 ohms.
If it has an internal resistor or is high resistance, you should not use a resistance wire. It could cause high RPM ignition problems, but being it’s a four cylinder it would probably be OK. An eight cylinder engine has half the time to saturate the coil as a four cylinder at the same RPM and eight cylinders can’t tolerate any extra resistance at high RPM.
I looked at the Homelite wiring diagram and it’s set up to use an external ballast resistor and a starter bypass circuit. It would be nice to know what the primary resistance and ballast resistor resistance were in the original coil and ballast. Do you still have yours?
The bottom line is that if it is a high resistance primary coil, you should not use a ballast resistor or a resistance wire. It should run fine, you just won’t have a bypass start system which I really don’t think is required for that engine anyway.
If you want to use a bypass circuit you should use a low resistance coil like the NAPA IC10SB along with a ballast resistor and the starter bypass circuit.
The engine sounds good on the video.

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Re:New To Glassics 4 years 8 months ago #78425

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Flying Fish, I got the coil at Hap's auto supply. Yes it has an internal resistor. No, I don't use an external resistor with it. As soon as I get an ohm meter, I'll check everything out and make sure all systems are ok.
Unfortunately, I have to pull the motor again. The motor pan gasket is too thick and the vent tube was left out. Also, I had a main seal which I wasn't going to put in yet, but, as long as I will have the motor out, I may as well replace it. I couldn't figure out where that vent tube went. If you look at the diagram, it goes under the pan, not on top. There is also an o-ring that fits over it. I have a template for the pan gasket, so things should go quickly.
BTW, I found out that O'Reilly sells Berryman carb cleaner. When I take the motor off, I'll do the carbs at the same time.
Yeah, starting it up was fun! Man, that motor has torque. It was really hard to hold on to. The video wasn't that good. It was from a 3G cell phone. My new class 10 32GB SDHC card should be in tomorrow and I'll probably take another video.

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Re:New To Glassics 4 years 8 months ago #78457

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Don, you're the first person I've heard explain this system for cold weather starting. Back in the day I was taught it was an aid for starting, period. Personal experience would back that up as I have worked on many 12V vehicles, not all, that started only after releasing key from start to the on position. What I would find for this problem is the bypass system was inoperable and yes the ballast circuit was operating during cranking, just wasn't enough "juice" available during cranking. If you think about this, the coil is designed to use with around 9V while the running. During startup the starter uses a lot of the battery power and drops the voltage going to the coil, maybe a couple volts (you said 8 to 10v, so what would it be going through the ballast maybe 6 to 8v where as with the bypass it would be closer to the 9v). The bypass simply helps keep the voltage to the coil near the 9V. Personal experience taught me that the points system using 12V was designed to use a ballast resistor (or resistor wire) with the starting bypass system and I personally would not change the system to use without it. You also mention having a good battery and starter, having numerous of these engines I've encountered a few dragging starters. These engines are 40 to 50 years old and things wear out, I would advise all that run these to check the top starter bushing under the bendix for wear. Nine out of ten times this is the dragging problem. Just my $.02

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Dick Johnson

1989 16ft Sylvan

'57 Evinrude 18 (finally found a decent one)
'58 Johnson 5.5
'72 Johnson 6.0
'61 Homelite
'64 Johnson 18
'65 Homelite 55
'66 Homelite 55
'68 Bearcat 55 (3)
'70 Bearcat 55 (2)
'71 Bearcat 85 (Sold)

Re:New To Glassics 4 years 8 months ago #78652

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Craig,
I have a guy in LA area willing to travel/pay someone to swap out his powerhead. Let me know if you're interested.
Bill

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Re:New To Glassics 4 years 8 months ago #78659

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Sounds good, Bill. Long time no hear. How've you been? Let me give you a call tomorrow. It's 9:30 p.m. here now.

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Re:New To Glassics 4 years 8 months ago #78661

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OK.
Shoot me an email to outboardr over on gmail.com and I'll forward you his info.

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Re:New To Glassics 4 years 8 months ago #78679

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I sent you an e-mail on your .com. I don't have your g-mail address.

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Re:New To Glassics 4 years 8 months ago #78958

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Hey, Bill. I got Myles motor today and pulled the plugs. I did the compression check. All about 90/150-160. Plugs were kinda wet. I'm gonna wait for Myles' o.k. to post the photos. I'm gonna drop the lower unit then check the impeller, which I'm sure is fried. Thanks again for the referral. He wants to beef up the h.p. by putting on high performance parts. I said I'll check with you and see what you got.

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Re:New To Glassics 4 years 8 months ago #78968

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if one cylinder is at 90 and stays there it's got problems.
see if the valve clearances are out.
i don't have any hi perf stuff, I do have a block bored for .020 over pistons, new pistons/rings in the box I was saving for myself but will sell.
bruce built a nice motor years back, but he sold it. he will be first to tell you it takes several thousand dollars and lots of time and a good machinist to get more power. can be done but you have to capitalize the project properly. up to you guys.
I like them stock and properly tuned best, they are honeys when setup properly. Sip sip sip, no smoke, very nice.

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Re:New To Glassics 4 years 8 months ago #79045

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I tore into the motor today. The impeller was shot. Bill, when I get the parts list together, I want one of those impellers that you got me. Those are the best. I'm gonna need a main seal, some gaskets and some other stuff. I'll get you the serial #.

This impeller is toast. It left a lot of residual rubber on the water pump. Mine was actually worse.

Electronic ignition. Nice!

Not a bad looking motor.

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Re:New To Glassics 4 years 7 months ago #79302

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I tore into the motor today and the bearings were a little scored. The cam shaft wasn't in good shape, either. As soon as I drop the crank, I'll take a better look at the engine block and see if it's worth saving.

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Re:New To Glassics 4 years 7 months ago #79914

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More photos.

I made a new motor stand. I like it better.

I took out one of the bearings. It's standard. The crank isn't worth saving.

The pistons are knurled. Not the best choice. Crank kit, pistons and rings would be the best for this motor. Valve train looks ok. No scoring or burn marks.

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Re:New To Glassics 4 years 5 months ago #82827

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I thought I would bring everyone up to date on what's going on with Miles' Bearcat. He sold the '63 Thompson that the outboard was sitting on. The guy he sold it to didn't want a classic motor. ??? Miles can't decide what he wants either. Next week, I'm gonna E-mail him and maybe make an offer. I'm not sure whether I want two 55's. Would be nice. I may sell it as is or put minimum parts in it and sell as is-running of course. Probably rings and bearings.

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